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Posted By:BTCAdmin on: 9/3/2004 4:30:32 PM


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Author: Thread: Red rod perm
Anonymous

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 4:56:00 AM
I am interested in doing a male client with tiny red rods (the smallest ones) I have done this before and had great results, but the curls seem to open after a while and were quite big after like 3 months. Can anyone advise? The desired final result is that of texturized ethnic african american hair. Is there a way to keep permed hair as fresh and tight as the first day? Thanks for your replies.

PS - the tightest result i ever got was with the exothermic (gold box) of the Quantum perm, neutrilized and rinsed on the rods. Will doing a 24-hr air neutralization produce tighter results?


Posts:

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 6:18:00 AM
You didn't go to school for this- did you?
You cannot leave neutralizer on for 24 hours.
Hair grows quite a bit in 3 months. The hair that comes out of the head is not permed. you have to perm that hair..........
But really, go to school first then you would know this stuff.

Anonymous

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 7:08:00 AM
No, the client actually wants, as I stated, for his hair to look like texturized African American hair. Ronald McDonald is an Irish name, so he most certainly does not fit the description.

I didn't say to leave the neutrilizer in for 24 hours, I said AIR neutrilizer you twat. And I didn't talk about hair GROWTH, I talked about the curls loosening.

Maybe it is YOU who needs to go back to school to learn to read. FU

Alena
Posts: 50

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 8:34:00 AM
wow, calm down guys! Can you explain to me what air neutralizing is? you are only supposed to leave that on for 5 minutes anyways. you could leave it on a little longer and it really doesn't do anything. Its lifespan isn't that long really. ARe you rolling the perm on base or what? You migh not have left the solution on as long as you were supposed to. And check the type of perm you used to the texture of his hair. Maybe that could be the problem for curls loosening.

Anonymous

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 9:03:00 AM
The hair will completely air neutralize in 24 hours or so, if left on the rods and allowed to dry COMPLETELY. Neutralizer is not even used for this process, you just rinse after processing, then let it dry. It's rarely done because who wants to go around with perm rods in their hair for at least 24 hours?

It's unrealistic for this client to expect a perm to stay this tight for 3 months.

Alena
Posts: 50

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 12:17:00 PM
Yeah especially if you DON'T use neutralizer...you NEED neutralizer, lol. Well as for as I know anyways. I wouldn't do my perms without it because it bonds the hair so that it stays curly instead of straight.

mc
Posts: 2360
Platinum Member

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 12:54:00 PM
You should ask questions IN class before you start preaching. What happens when you leave nuetralizer in the hair too long?

Anonymous

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 12:59:00 PM
I can't believe no one's heard of air neutralization!

mc
Posts: 2360
Platinum Member

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 1:05:00 PM
Anon-4:56 What products is you client using? How often does he shampoo? Does he use conditioner? How often does he comb it? What type of hair does he have? How hong is his hair?
I agree with Anon-9:03.

mc
Posts: 2360
Platinum Member

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 1:05:00 PM
Anon above- I guess they don't teach that anymore.

Sigel
Posts: 34

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 2:34:00 PM
Alena, you should get out to some classes a bit more before you blast someone for doing chemical work that has been going on all over the world for the past 30 years! When you neutralize the disulfide bonds during a perm, you introduce oxygen via 4 percent peroxide neutralizer. When you air neutralize the disulfide bonds during a perm, you introduce oxygen via the atmosphere's free oxygen. A wet neutralizer will only rebond up to 40 percent of the bonds while air neutralizing can rebond up to 100 percent. Also, they orignal poster did not say they left the neutralizer on for 24 hours, they air neutralized for 24 hours. And why can you not leave the neutralizer on for 24 hours? It turns into water after the oxygen has evaporated. You would do much better to learn from these questions rather than trying to make the poster feel stupid and then go elsewhere to find their answers. I would ask the original poster if they cold condense their wet neutralized perms and what technique they use to prevent osmotic pressure damage while you are at it.

Sigel
Posts: 34

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 2:35:00 PM
Also, you are much better off wrapping with Efalock rods rather than the traditional concave rods because of the bands.

Anonymous

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 3:35:00 PM
Sigel, I am the original poster. You sound very knowledgable. Please explain to me what cold condensing is and what osmotic damage is.

Also, what are efalock rods. Thanks a lot.

Anonymous

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 3:41:00 PM
Also, I didn't air neutrilize, nor did I leave neutrilizer in for 24 hours. I neutrilized normally but simply asked if having air neutralized would have been bettre in keeping the perm tight.

Thanks a lot.

Alena
Posts: 50

Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 11:19:00 PM
Sigel, I said that you shouldn't leave it on after 5 minutes anyways, because your right...it does eventually turn into water. I didn't say you dont' leave it on becaue it damages the hair. I am still in school matter of factly, and Im sorry I haven't been in the business as long as you. Also, as far as I am concerned, maybe you misunderstood. I wasn't trying to make anyone look stupid. I was giving some advice on what I do know about the situation and it seems to me as though you are trying to call me out. That just pisses me off for some reason, that you come on here acting like that when I was being nice. Nice as can be. Oh well. MC, no..I don't think they teach that anymore. I'm going to ask my instructor about that tomorrow, obviously I need more training anyways, forgive me, Im just some stupid student!

Sigel
Posts: 34

Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:29:00 AM
There are only two amino bonds in the alpha helix coil (out of fourty six) that connect with each other, creating a disulfide bond. The thio breaks down these bonds but they are delicate for about 48 hours after you neutralize. This means the hydrogen bonds hold the hair in place until these disulfide bonds completely rebond. This is why you should not wash or wet your hair for 48 hours after doing a perm. It takes that long for the hair to reharden. After the processing phase is complete, carefully blot the hair to remove the chemicals from the hair. If you rinse first instead of blotting, you will only remove some of the chemicals from the hair, and the remainder will cause the hair to smell like a dead cat for months! The hair swells greatly during the perm solution processing, and hitting this delicate hair with water just expands the hair more, but in such a violent manner that is many times just splits down the length. If you blot the hair before rinsing, the hair swelling will reduce to allow for the additional swelling from rinsing. This damage is osmotic pressure damage. After rinsing a full 5 minutes with very low, very warm water, you should blot again. By placing a cool dryer over the rods for about 10 minutes (cold condensing), you can reduce the amount of water still seperating the bonds, allowing more of them to rebond when you neutralize. If you are going to air neutralize, blot the hair very very well and send your client home. It doesn't really matter if you air neutralize 24 hours or 124 hours, the hair just has to be absolutely bone dry. This is a very bad perm to give your flaky clients as they will take it out when it is fairly dry, and you have wasted your time. This is an excellent perm to give your clients with beautiful shiney hair, and both of these qualities will remain. Be careful not to use too small of rods because this type of perm will not relax to the same degree you are used to with wet neutralizers. Bender rods and Efalock rods are the best choice for this perm unless the hair is short. Hi Alena. Perhaps I did misunderstand you. When you said... You didn't go to school for this- did you?... I thought you were saying that the original poster had not gone to school and did not know what she was talking about. I read it again, and it sounds like you were saying... You didn't go to school for this- did you?... more like, did you get this information at school or somewhere else. Don't worry, I was not trying to call you out. Nobody gets confused about that. I was just trying to make sure that you were not shutting down the original poster while I just sat there and did nothing. I have a problem with unfairness around me and always seem to take it on myself to protect the underdog. And before anyone shoots my head off, I am NOT calling anyone a dog. Alena, I am actually impressed that you take the time to learn about hair outside of school. Good for you!

Anonymous

Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 6:05:00 AM
Thanks so much sigel. I will try all of your tips. and you're saying that with air neutrilization, you get a tighter and shinier result!! Wow, that's the whole point of this whole discussion. He WANTS it to look all the time like it does right after the perm. Thank you.

One more ? If I choose to air neutrilize him, do I still have to do cold condensing.

Furthremore, if the whole point of air neutrilizing is getting the hair to dry and NOT timing, why cant the hair just fully be dried under a dryer. If you can cold condense for ten minutes, what would happen if you did it for like an hour and dried the hair completely? Would this not be the same as leaving it on the rod until it dried?

Anonymous

Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 6:08:00 AM
Also, about the osmotic pressure and blotting, is it done after perming AND after wet neutrilizing, after the first, the latter, when? I am assuming from your post AFTRE the perm and BEFORE wet neutrilizing.

Anonymous

Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 6:09:00 AM
and one more, if I do send them home for air neutrilization, isn't there danger that the rods will pop, especially on this man's quite short hair?

Alena
Posts: 50

Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 6:42:00 AM
Well I am glad you didn't come on here acting outrageous, again. Thanks for apologizing. Yes, I am in school, have been since August 2003. I graduate in December. I do very well in school and perming was covered the first month of school and we haven't talked about it since. I do perms in the clinic, but only every now and then. I guess I shall read over my material some more though. See ya

Alena
Posts: 50

Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 6:43:00 AM
OHHH by the way I just saw where someone said, you didn't go to school for this did you? that wasn't even me. That was someone else.

mc
Posts: 2360
Platinum Member

Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 9:05:00 AM
You haven't talked about perms since the first month?

Sigel
Posts: 34

Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 11:54:00 AM
Hi Alena, I wasn't being outrageous. I was responding to an inequitable social situation. I said that I may have misunderstood you, just as you said that you may have misunderstood someone else. I noticed that you did not bother to clarify what you actually said. Like one of my brighter students likes to say while shaking his head, stop poking the bear in the eye with a stick.

-------

The process for air neutralized perms is 1 wash with a chelating shampoo. 2 Wrap 3 Process. 4 Blot 5 rinse 5 minutes with very warm, very low pressure water for 5 minutes. 6 have your client go home and carefully remove the rods after the hair is bone dry. The process for wet neutralizers is 1 shampoo with chelator. 2 process. 3 blot. 4 rinse with very warm, very low pressure water for five minutes. 5 blot. 6 cold condense. 7 neutralize. I have had much better results using a cold wave and not an acid or a hybrid perm. I think the molecular size of the acid wave components is too large. I am not sure why you can not dry the perm under the dryer but I have spoken with many people that tried this and it didn't work. I have nudged it a bit dryer for about fifteen minutes and still had good results. Try to do a wrap with the most surface area, not wrapping two feet of hair around a traditional rod. Good luck.

Alena
Posts: 50

Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:47:00 PM
Well whatever, it doesn't matter to me. The way I see it, both of us misunderstood. I am not wanting to argue about this. MC- yeah we have talked about perms more since the first month, but when we talked about how to actually do perms it was the first few months. And later on we talked about the chemical process a little more. Its just the fact that I had never heard of air neutralizing, and I thought the person meant you would put neutralizer on and leave it on over night. I did, however, ask my instructor about it and she told me a lot some things about it and that was that.

nat22
Posts: 6

Yeehaw! now THIS is having fun w/ school!
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2007 7:13:10 PM
Thanks guys, had a great laugh & thanks to Sigel, learned a heck of a lot too.  Any of you still reading the site?