half an hour before closing a client calls and says she needs a highlite. I decided to stay and do it. Of course when she gets there she wants the impossible. . Turned out awesome!!! I told her I would include her cut and blow out in the price. Since it was her first time in my chair. She knew we were closed and I was going over and beyond to get her hair done. Took 2 1/2 hours by the time I was done blow drying and flatironing. She was very nice, liked her hair alot, wrote me a check and skipped on her merry little way. No tip, none! Not even a buck! But she took my business card so she can call me again. GGgggrrrrrrrrr
hairgod- you are NOT THE GOD OF THE bulletin board. geez.. are you any better for YOUR post?
Roberto- if YOU OFFER A DISCOUNT you are making yourself look desperate. Clients who really like you are going to follow you because of that, not because of a discount.
I will say again that pre booking is of utmost importance. That is the sure way of keeping in contact with ALL your clients not to mention the fact that you make more money by prebooking. It is a fact that everytime you move you lose clients. So it is imperative to select places very carefully and not shop hop. Good luck to you, and be sure to ask the clients that you have retained to send you more clients. Ask for referrals and you will get them! Make sure you send a thank you card with balloons and or flowers to the workplace of clients that send you referrals DO NOT GIVE FREE SERVICES. Their co workers will ask" who sent those?" and then they will talk about you some more. Good luck.
Hairgod... if he was too busy to worry about walk ins, would he be on this thread worried?
runswithscissors write ANYWHERE YOU LIKE.
I wonder what would happen if I tipped my doctor?
A professional should not accept tips. Waiters accept tips, not professionals.
Actually TIPS are
GET IT. Why would my clients be upset by not having to deal with tipping a PROFESSIONAL. They wouldn't tip their lawyer or doctor.
When are we going to try and become more professional. It's bad enough we have stylists wearing jeans and tennis shoes to work but now we have Susie Stylist with A TIP JAR on her station.
HOW TACKY is that? Geez.
Do you make as much as a lawyer or doctor?
mmm probably not.
Roberto, didn't mean to hijack your thread I apologize.
As far as discounting my service is because she was already in my chair and was ready to walk when she heard the price. And I really just needed the $$$. As far as why I was complaining about no tip is because I was venting . Thought this was the right place to do it. It is customary to tip your hairstylist! (Maybe I can find a waitress bulletin board to vent on their sure to understand). You know what...face it we are not on the same plain as Dr.'s and lawyers. Professional or not!!! We will never be viewed as that kind of professional, ever!
I think to try and lump us into the same catoragory as lawyers and doctors does a terrible injustice to us. We just are not on professional par with them in financial gains from our crafts. Even the salons that are "million dollar salons" are still not pulling in near as much as the doctors and lawyers around them in their area are.
My kid's well-visit at the pediatrician usually costs over $100.00. (and if I didn't cut my son's hair), A haircut for him costs as little as $8.00 in some salons here. see the difference?
A neighbor of mine retained a divorce lawyer. The non-refundable retainer was $10,000.00!! And she took the guy back.....but lost 10,000.00. Very few people spend $10,000 a year (maybe even in a lifetime) at the salon they frequent. BIG DIFFERENCE.
However I think we should study their examples of professional presentation and apply it to ourselves. I think it would help in the fight to change the public's misconceptions of us.
Like it or not, we are not in the same category as doctors and other professionals mentioned. Doctors charge enough accordingly that they do not require tips in order to survive. Same applies to lawyers.
To compare this profession with those mentioned is a little asinine.
"God gave us two ears and one mouth for a very sage reason. Think before you speak. Don't speak before you think."
"The truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is."Winston Churchill
two things that just cracked me up...
Combining us with Doctors and Lawyers does an injustice to US? WHAT? If anything it does the injustice to the Doctors and Lawyers.
And Nic saying that doctors and lawyers charge enough to not need tips. WELL, why don't we do the same?
Why are we not charging enough to make ourselves sufficient without TIPS? I do.
I don't need tips to survive. If someone wants to give me a bonus at Christmas that's fine or a birthday gift but I'm not accepting a tip for doing something that I have just charged them a good amount of money for. Sorry if that offends anyone.
I just find TIPS to be incredibly cheap and tacky. Question: For you salon owners out there, Do you accept tips even though proper etiquette states that a client should NOT tip a salon owner?
because: doing hair cannot be compared to saving lives or putting bad guys in jail.
Unfortunately it's JUST hair.
As a hairdresser I am not upset to be linked with Doctors, but if I were a doctor I would be upset being linked with a hairdresser.
THAT'S WHAT I WAS SAYING. The hairdresser is getting no injustice thrown at them, the doctor is.
I don't think we will ever be in the same league as Doctors or Lawyers as far a professionalism goes. We can't get 10 people on a chat board to stop complaining long enough to agree on anything. We can't get stylists to change their verbage and call it lightener instead of bleach.
We can't get stylists to stop talking on their cell phones during a service. We can't get clients to stop taking cell phone calls during a service.
Why is it that we can't get any respect? Is it something that society has done, or something we have done? hmmmmm
ok, first I wouldnt call being interested in other professions a luxury. I think that's the wrong word entirely. but that being said I don't ever remember saying anything about teachers or principals. I was talking about OUR professionalism vs that of Doctors and Lawyers. A teacher is not at the same level as them either.
As far as being proud of what I have done, yes I am. I am not proud of what many of the other hairdressers in this country have done. But that was the question I was asking. Do you think it is something WE have done or something society has thrust upon us? Why can't anyone answer the question? Instead of just trying to talk around it.
and Mina, read my post sentence by sentence and tell me what was IGNORANT about it.
Hairpro, it's not really your place to decide whether or not the rest of the hairdressers in this country are up on your level or not. That's creating a really big burden for yourself for nothing but headaches. It's called being snooty.
And the funny thing how now you are saying that it's insulting to the doctors and lawyers to be compared to hairdressers....YOU are the one who brought that comparison to the table in the first place. (in several different threads no less!!!!!)
I wrote that the comparison does hairdressers a terrible injustice because there is no way any of us are bringing in the same amount of money as doctors and lawyers.
I feel that to try to create that kind of misconception will only hurt the many in this industry who rely on the tips to survive. (and maybe that's not you, and isn't that wonderful for you? but tips are a need of many others. and you know what else? That in NO way makes those hairdressers less important or less deserving of respect than you.) Your responses to this part of my post borders on the ridiculous and you are now contradictting yourself.
It's great that you find pride in yourself, but it's totally icky that you are putting everyone else down while you do it.
I looked at vally's use of "luxury" as being because we all know the compensation of this profession is in most cases the same amount as other types of service work that demand little or no schooling. She's ok to use that term because it appears to me that she "choosing" to be a hairdresser above all of her other occupational interests. i.e. she doesn't have to be a hairdresser?? Isn't that a luxury of modern life? Being able to choose your profession?
maybe if you re-read everything that you've written, you may find part of the answer to your question?
Dear Hairpro and gang-
Hairpro is just as entitled to his/her opinion as the rest of you are. The tip issue is getting tiring. There are salons out there that do have a no tipping policy. Hairpro is also correct that many owners (not all) will not accept tips. If you do, it's OK. I do. But, no reason to go on and on about this. Remember we are here to learn from each other, not attack one another. I appreciate it.
Cindy Asst Moderator
this post is what I found ignorant:
(I think you thought it was the more recent post but it was one behind..)
Combining us with Doctors and Lawyers does an injustice to US? WHAT? If anything it does the injustice to the Doctors and Lawyers. I do not consider myself to be beneath anyone, nor do I feel that I am above anyone. I treat everyone the way I wish to be treated.
And Nic saying that doctors and lawyers charge enough to not need tips. WELL, why don't we do the same? I don't think 10 years of college and internship is equal to less than a year at beauty school to warrant the same charges. I got laser eye surgery. I paid $1800 per eye. The surgery including prep time took less than one hour. I honestly can't think of one stylist that makes in excess of $3500 per hour.
Why are we not charging enough to make ourselves sufficient without TIPS? I do. So do I. But for some reason, the higher my price, the higher my tips keep getting. One thing I know is that big tippers get on the books- no matter how booked I am.
I don't need tips to survive. If someone wants to give me a bonus at Christmas that's fine or a birthday gift but I'm not accepting a tip for doing something that I have just charged them a good amount of money for. Sorry if that offends anyone. I don't need tips to survive either. But they definitely are great for gas money, and extra spending cash. It also does a great justice to your self esteem when someone tips above and beyond what is customary because they are so in love with what you have just done to their hair. It really gives you that appreciated feeling. The service charge is just that- it comes with no gratitude or thanks- it is expected.
I just find TIPS to be incredibly cheap and tacky. Question: For you salon owners out there, Do you accept tips even though proper etiquette states that a client should NOT tip a salon owner?
Tips in our industry are not tacky, they are customary. You seem to think that because you don't accept tips (which is your perrogative) that you somehow are better than everyone else who does. I think this is why people seem to be jumping on you, not the fact that you don't accept tips. Catch my drift?
Cindy, don't read it if you are tired of it.
I agree. I'm getting tired of writing responses to people like this only to have cindy come in with her "xxx" is entitled to their opinion" which seems to me are usually completely biased against my right to post my opinions too.
That is exactly why I wrote my post mina2. I'm not jumping on hairpro for anything except the condescending nature of what hairpro has written on here. It in no way justifies the post from cindy written under it.
believe me, if I wanted to "attack" someone on here, you would all recognize THAT for what it was!! no "ands, ifs or buts" about it!
And I am so entitled to reply. lmao
What does it mean to be entitled to your opinion only to be told to STOP POSTING?
Why does that same tired post keep popping up everytime the conversation gets going? Go monitor a kindergarten board already and tell all the kids to be nicey nice.
Mina2- You are entitled to you opinion. But there is a proper way to go about it. Just because someone does not agree with you, don't take it so personal to the point of forcing your way on others. Other posters will be able to post here without fear of being attacked. None of us know everything.......
Go monitor a kindergarten board already and tell all the kids to be nicey nice.
Mina2- you now have rules posted. This is your 2nd online warning. Next time, you will be banned. Cindy
Maybe Cindy is coming on here defending my right to have my opinion because she can see the point I'm trying to make. Sorry if everyone else thinks I'm being IGNORANT.
Mina, nothing that you posted in your reply would be considered ignorant.
You talked about your eye surgery and you say that it cost XX dollars per eye and you dont know any stylists that earn that much. Who's fault is that? WE as an industry have let that happen. Whenever govt decides to talk about national healthcare, don't you think that the healthcare industry jumps on board and says NO WE DON'T NEED THAT. Of course they do.
But we had fewer salons back in the 70's and many were charging more than they are NOW. Why? Because WE as an industry have allowed it to happen. We have been so worried about OURSELVES that we forgot to defend the industry as a whole.
Big tips get on the books. Well how about telling your clients that you welcome their THANK YOU SO MUCH but their tips are not expected or required. If they still want to tip, tell them to give the tip to the shampoo girl or assistant directly.
I think we are an incredibly backstabbing and bit**y industry. Probably because we think of ourselves as ARTISTS. I believe however we are actually more like SCIENTISTS since everything we do involves either chemistry or geometry. Maybe if we all got on the same page and decided that we wanted to increase the respect of our industry we could do something about it.
I cant believe that Mina actually told the Asst Moderator to STOP READING IF SHE WAS TIRED OF IT. Who is the one being silly and ignorant?
For Vally, yes I agree that what the actress said was horrible, but it was the opinion that most of the country shares. They think of us as NON-EDUCATED, silly, flakey, un-professional, twits that couldn't do anything else with our lives so we went to beauty school. And they all know that ANYONE can get thru beauty school. The sad part is, they are for the most part RIGHT about the beauty school. How many people do you know that went to beauty school because the govt was paying for it. How many do you know that after going to beauty school decided not to test. They then went off to nursing assistant school or some other trade because as long as they stayed in school, the govt would pay for their daycare and food stamps. I can't count the number of students that I have talked to over the past 25years in the business that had NO interest in ever doing hair. Why are they in the school? Because the school wants their money and they don't care if they ever work. If they don't test, they wont count them against their placement percentages.
It's an industry that needs a facelift. I have had applicants come to the salon for an interview wearing FLIPFLOPS for crying out loud. I told them that we did not consider that appropriate attire and the interview ended before it began. I don't even allow JEANS in my salon. It's tacky. If we want to be taken seriously we have to start with ourselves.
The "we had fewer salons in the 70's" comment hit the nail on the head. I for one believe that our problems stem from too much competition with eachother. Many salons in the quest for success bottomed out on pricing just to attract a clientele. Salons also are always jumping on fads and gimmicky products that never move. There is no magic in success, only hard work towards a realistic vision.
And it certainly doesn't help that we are constantly being portrayed as gossipy, trashy, gum-snapping bimbo's bimbettes and bimhims (I couldn't think of anything for a man bimbo.....val would know cool slang for that). The problem is is that I a stylist, (on & off) for almost 20 years can count 10 stylists I know or have worked with that actually fit in these descriptions.
Change does start with us as individuals raising the level of professionalism in every move we make and every word we speak in the salon. Just like how you would see a doctor or lawyer behaving in their office. I've never heard any of my doctor's complaining about a hangover, I've never seen a doctor get argumentive with a patient or collegue, I've never seen a lawyer chewing gum or discussing partner problems loudly at work. We need to change the ideals that many have that the salon should have a lax atmosphere. Just because we are working on a personal aspect of the client really closely doesn't mean that we should not have boundaries.
While I'm in agreement on the dress code issue, I must say that facts are facts. The reference I made re: doctors and lawyers charging accordingly, and this profession not being in their league is due to the simple fact that their professions are much more involved, educationally, as are they more respected by the consumer in general. Like it or not, those are the facts. Both professions start out with at least 8 years of schooling.
As to your question,,,why don't we do the same? Who do you think would pay $100 or more an hour to have their hair done? It's not rocket science. It's not complex. Cosmetologists attend school for a total of 10 months, tops. That's not even counting estheticians (6 months) or nail technicians (3 months). Beauty school does not teach anything except beauty. No economics, no law, no math. They don't even have English Composition 101, which is very evident.
Upon reading your post, it's clear that you have answered your own question. While I admire your desire to see change in this industry, it's not the best idea to go about it without appropriate rapport building skills that are required to get people to listen and jump on the bandwagon. From what I see, you are turning people off with your attitude. That's a shame because you really seem to have this profession's best interests at heart. My question to you would be,,, if you can't get people to listen to you here, among peers, where it needs to begin,,, what chance do you have of making a difference? If you consider losing the attitude, you could be a great voice in changing our profession as we know it. You have lots of inspirational ideas. You simply need to hone your communication skills.
Habib, you get what I'm trying to say. THANK YOU. I knew eventually people would stop being defensive and see that I was not attacking them but the industry as a whole.
Nic, I don't think we should be charging $100 an hour. We don't have to be that high, but we as an industry could decide that a 5% increase yearly is the industry standard and we all go up every year. We can all start dressing more appropriately. We can all stop listening to the gossip that works beside us. We can all start acting in a more professional way. We can all start treating this profession like a science instead of a hobby.
BY THE WAY HABIB... It's MIMBO. hehehe
I agree with you, HairPro.
Although I don't agree that this profession should be considered "science", I do get what you're conveying. You share my standards for this profession. We, as a whole, can bring this profession up to the standards we deserve. It starts with us, one by one.
Quite awhile back, someone brought up the issue of us becoming unionized. What are your thoughts on that? I think you have very good ideas and impeccable professional standards. I'm interested in reading what you have to say regarding this topic.
hee hee hee lol! I was pretty close though!
one of the things I've noticed here on this board is that sometimes it seems that each poster is taking his/her own long windy road to the same place. I find the topics and each individual here fascinating.
You are being issued an online warning for the following reasons:
Once again not being rude, but I agree with Mina2. First off ignorance does not mean rudeness, even though some people link it with such, it means a lack of knowledge, and you hairpro were being ignorant.
This will not be tolerated on these boards. This is a professional forum and not everyone is going to agree with one another. Please understand that 2 warnings under the same category will result in a ban of membership.
Cindy Farr Hester Asst Moderator
yes Habib, you were close. I havent thought about the term Mimbo in ages, you made me laugh.
As far as unionizing, I truly don't think this is an industry that can benefit from a union. I think perhaps more participation in TCA or NCA or other organizations could help us. We need more representation in congress as well.
And I really do think this industry is more scientific than artistic. Think about it, every haircut we do we think about what degree we raise the hair 45, 90, etc. When we do perms, we think about reduction and oxidation and the chemical reaction of the thio., when we color we are mixing chemicals in proper proportions so that the color can enter the cuticle and oxidize. It's all scientific if you think about it. The only part that has anything to do with art is the color wheel. hehe.
I just wish that we could get more people into thinking of this as a profession, not just a job. Any suggestions anyone? Maybe I can go around to every salon in the country and enrage them enough that they pay attention. hehe. Just a thought.
just an FYI for everyone. I never once complained to Cindy or anyone else about any posts. Didn't want everyone thinking I was whining to her about you all.This post is only my opinion. Take it or leave it. That's what makes this country great.
For the record: I have not communicated with Hairpro. I am simply reading these posts. My opinion is this: when someone new joins the boards and they have something to say that is insightful, it appears to intimidate some others. I am not going to have our new members picked apart. IMO Hairpro's post were very easy to follow and I did not see why they were being over analyzed. That is why I stepped in on my own. At this point, I would like to state that I am very proud that everyone is finally coming together........it is so ok to agree to disagree but personal attacks are simply not allowed by an individual or a group. Thank you............Cindy
For the record my family doctor wears jeans and is almost always chewing gum.
So this post is getting old. But I'm a new stylist and still have one more to question.
Hairpro you wrote - Big tips get on the books. Well how about telling your clients that you welcome their THANK YOU SO MUCH but their tips are not expected or required. If they still want to tip, tell them to give the tip to the shampoo girl or assistant directly.
What about me? I am still building a clientel and my paychecks are only about 200 a week if I'm lucky. I'm far from having an assistant (actually I am the assistant when I'm slow) and VERY far from making enough money for home ownership. Which is my goal right now. Its awesome you are where you are in your career and I hope to be there myself someday. But did you not except any tips in the beginning?
Ps I agree w/you maybe I shouldn't have been so expecting of a tip from that woman, but it really made me question myself.
Cindy, a quick question wbout your comment to val: You wrote: "You directly called another member a name as indicated in the following post. you also are IMO are participating in posting with mina2 and HABIB in a manner to provoke a negative response to an individual."
I beg your pardon? Cindy, what does that mean? And where are you getting that I am doing any of those things. It's simply not true. However, I do see that once again after everything has cooled down per order your request you fire everyone up again by continuing the negetivity your self. I am NOT bashing you or abusing you cindy, I am merely pointing this out. I've seen this sort of thing from you and it conjures negative feelings in my heart. I'm guessing that you are skimming the posts instead of reading all of them through??????
And since I am now being branded as an ill-will instigator by you I need to speak my feelings- that why I feel that it is necesary to write this. You are handpicking certain people as "bad element" only because that they sometimes think in like ways. What is wrong with that?
Please, I call things as I see them, like it or don't like it. I have no control over whether you do or don't, but please don't write negatively about me unless you are directing it at me. Thank you- I'd apreciate it.
I personally think a union may be a wasted effort and just something else a hairdresser has to pay a lot of money for without really getting anything good back. (plus one of my personal pet peeves about unions is that whenever a raise happens everyone gets it...including the slackers. I think individual rewarding on the payscale is important for a good employee morale)
But what I think is the most important thing is that we do need to band together on is some kind of united health insurance. When I graduated hairschool that is what I thought this "hairdresser's insurance" that they talked about at school was. Not so, who in their right mind can afford $1500.00 a month for health insurance? That's what they told me mine would be, for just me alone, not including my husband and my kids.........
I also agree in that this industry is more scientific than artistic, because even though most of us come up with a color formulation for a specific client on our own. The color itself is a specific numbered amount of specific colors in the mix to make that specific color. It can never change, even a little bit because then it becomes another different color.
Our problems with the artistic factor is that most of us in this industry are right-side of the brain people who either didn't enjoy or just didn't "get" a lot of the academics that we were supposed to learn in school. Math, science AND ENGLISH nearly made me drop-out of high school. But a persistant (over-bearing A LOT) father and a lot of luck got me through. ( And I went to a trade school, that's half the academics of a regular high school!). I graduated from fashion design and then went to hair school a year later.
Being artistic has it's up & downs, on one hand people applaud you for being so clever. On the other hand people seem to assume that you are not smart. At least these things have happened to me. (In my case on top of all of this I have a serious disability that hindered my academic and social growth profoundly.....can't you all tell???) And like many others because of the positive/negative of being an artistic individual we have no clue how to charge accordingly for our work. It comes out of something personal within each of us and to be critiqued or the fear of being critiqued about it pretty much cripples us. However when you reach the point of 98% or more happy praising clients the hairdresser believe that it is all them and their artistry that got them there.
That is why it's hard to make many believe that it is all chemistry and science.
actually Habib- i could not tell that you had any disability at all. I have no clue what it would be and it doesn't matter.
I'm glad that people are starting to see what I was trying all along to say. I am a science junkie, I was the student in school sitting with all the products and deciphering what was in them. I still do that. Whenever a new product comes out I can look at the ingredients list and tell if it is really a new product or just an old product that has a new fragrance. hehe.
Color fascinates me. If we truly think about color, there are only three colors known to man: red, blue and yellow. And every other color in the world are created from these 3 colors. That IS science my friends. So don't ever tell yourself that you aren't good at science. You do it everyday.
And math? You ARE good at math. Think about this... when you do a bob haircut, what elevation do you use? When you need to mix two colors, how do you know what to do? It's all math. You ARE good at math, just maybe not the kind they taught in school.
Even the governing board of Cosmetology Schools (NACCAS) understands. The last part of their name says it all... Cosmetology Arts AND SCIENCES.
I for one am now going to do my best to change my verbage and stop calling it beauty school when I discuss it with anyone. It will be Cosmetology School. I didn't go there to learn how to be beautiful. I was beautiful before I went. HEHE. (Let me live the dream people) LOL
I am going to request that all my stylists do the same, maybe if we start working together on our verbage it will catch on in other places.
Lightener instead of Bleach
Texture Design instead of Perm
Oxidize instead of processing
ETC ETC ETC Anyone have any more ideas of new verbage/correct verbage for us?
A warning is being issued to you for breaking the following board rule:
What If I Disagree With A Moderator? Moderators are not perfect and are only human. Disagreements occur. Try to communicate with them first on a respectful level and settle your disagreement. They are not targets for your obscenities, flames or general insults. If you do not agree with a decision, you are not entitled to start a thread arguing about the verdict or flaming any of the moderators. Any such messages will be removed. Also note that bans are between the user banned and the moderators, and moderators cannot respond about bans publicly. Any correspondence about ban length and reason will be handled through un-ban requests.
I have provided my email address for each and every one of you to contact me privately if you have an issue with me. I will continue to make these boards a free place for everyone to do so. And guess what Habib? I am entitled to my opinion also, just as you are yours. But, you are not the only person with an opinion, so don't take it personally when I have to step in. It is quite rude to talk of the moderator in this manner on-line in a professional forum. If you wish to discuss this further, please email me privately so we may work it out at firstname.lastname@example.org. Further talk of this matter on these boards is discouraged.
Cindy Asst Moderator
I can't stop laughing long enough to post anything worth reading! Val: Sorry you have been accused of being guilty by association. Maybe you should agree with the other posters. That is ok. Doctors make WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than $100 an hour. In fact it isn't hard as a stylist to make that.
And boy, I will go now because I am truly shaking in my boots with fear.
hairpro good post. and thank you. like I said before sometimes the posters here take separate long winding roads to get to the same place.
cindy, no it's not- you are moderating on your feelings and not the principles that pertain to use of this site. And I get a warning an entire day & a half later for a certain post? I don't think the posted BTC rules are supposed to be for personal vindication.
unbelievable, but I think I'm actually getting the warning because of my revelations about myself and not the post mentioned.
GOOD BYE! it seems that the only opinion here you like is YOUR OWN. This part of the site has completely gone down hill.
Habib- This has absolutely nothing to due with personal vendiction. I assure you. It is easy to assume things when you don't really know the person, and maybe I have with you. I think you are a great poster with a lot of good information to share. However, I do have a job to do. I have to enforce the rules. Whatever your opinion is, it's fine. All I ask is you do not force opinion to the point (and this goes for all of us) that others are left defending themselves. Things can be handled in a better manner than that. That is all I am asking from you and everyone else. Please carry on and know that I am human just like everyone else. Just please respect the board rules.
Thank you, Cindy
I could use a glass of wine and a foot massage... Do I have to go all the way to Canada? lol
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