Thanks for your explainatian :) ... But is there any scientific reason why artificial colour cannot lift artificial color but they can lift natural pigment in hair? As i know , colour will darken color .
just because some old beauty school instructor says it doesnt , that doesnt mean its new true. i remember in school that they would pound this into our heads, they are also the same ladies who dont believe in color extractors instead they opt for a 'bleach bath' they think that you should learn more finger waves then full head bleaches and most of clientele are perms and shampoo sets rather then your career choice..therfore you never get to practice such an idea.
it works, it might not look like that swatch your going for but it works.. they have also created color lines specifically for this situation.. try a test strand first if its not light enough tweak your recipe
and if your too scared to try something new, then just get rid of the old and use a color remover... i swear by them!
There are several technical reasons that color doesn't lift ARTIFICIAL color:
1. When clients get there hair colored, say, 8 times a year, the mid shaft & ends will have much more color build up of color than the new growth area, therefore the Highlift color application (which is what normally is used) will not have even result, it may be darker in the middle, even light on the end due to porosity of those ends or the ends could remain darker, it's a chancey thing.
2. what really happens this that any artificial color that was still on the cuticle layers gets blown off from the ammonia, while the peroxide/ammonia/couplers go into the cortex and attack any NATURAL pigment they come in contact with, and keep lifting those up more, therefore the hair will look lighter, but that's really from the natural underlying pigment being lifted.
3. But since the artificial color that was used might have both direct dyes and indirect dyes, some of the direct dyes (pre-formed, already has a color to them) can get pushed into the cortex more deeply- this happens more with bleach but it can happen with certain types of dyes too. This can cause a big problem if you had a color treated red head at a level 8, then used a highlift blond + 20vol or worse double 40vol and you can make a lovely shade of PINK!!!
4. There are several ways to remove color, and I have a huge article about this on my website:a. use a sulpher based remover that shrinks the artificial dyes down & then they are washed out. This keeps you at the same level that you colored to, so if youy went from a NL_4 to a level 6, used a sulpher based color remover, then you'd end up with a orangey gold underlying pigment when you took the color off, then you can tone it but it would stay at the level 6.Ex: ReMake by Roverhair; Rusk Elimin8; Pravana
b. use a mild bleach type of remover. This is just a mild bleach, which you can use with water or 10 or 20vol for darker colors or colors that have been on a while.Ex: Color Erase by Matrix; Uncolor by Clairol; Effisol
c. use Bleach, with 10vol or 20vol- which is good to use on hair that has 100% oxidative dyes AND you need to lift up levels.So if your NL-4 client really wanted not to be a level 6 you did and really wanted to be a level 8, it would be good NOT to use the sulpher based and go with the Bleach + 20vol as it would dissolve the artificial pigment (if they ARE 100% oxidative) and it would continue to lift the underlying pigment up to the level 8 you need.So you need to think about what you need to use, there are many options.
You can use the sulpher based product to get rid of the artificial dyes and then use bleach to lift levels and sometimes you'll need to take out the dyes by the type of dyes that are in the hair, so if you have a client that has used an OTC Feria product, then you need to use a semi/demi DIRECT DYE remover first, then you can use an oxidative dye remover like the sulpher based ones, and then if you still need to lift levels you can use the bleach + 10vol or 20vol.
-Mags KavanaughInternational Brand Ambassador for #1 Haircolor Manufacturer in the World, who has a website that I can't mention because my friend Cindy would get mad at me!!!
Mags KavanaughNational Education Director
This information posted in this thread is just what I was looking for, but I have a few more questions. Irish Royal posted great information about removing color. I have a client that I am planning on going lighter with in the next month or so. Here is her history: My client is naturally a warm golden toned level 7. For months we were coloring her with Redken Double Blondes 1/2 AV and 1/2 AB. So she was a very light blonde. We would only touch up her roots each time with the Double Blondes. About 4 months back, she decided she wanted to change to a nice warm brown. So I chose to use Goldwell Colorance. I filled her hair with the Goldwell fillers and have been using 3/4 6NN 1/4 7G and a dab of 6RB. We have probably been using this formula for about the last 5 color services. We have been applying this color from root to end on her hair.
Now she wants to go lighter. Probably around a level 8 light golden brown. What is the best method for lightening her hair these couple shades? Should I use bleach or a color remover? She has hair past her shoulders and is very good about taking care of it. It is currently in good condition.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Goldwell makes a sulpher based color reemover which is what you need to use, as you really have the lighter hair still underneath the color you have.
This is much more gentle on the hair and it should get you back to the underlying pigment of what you lifted the highlights up to before, at least on that part of the hair, you'll need to follow the directions to the letter, and when you go to rinse, use the hottest water you can use and rinse for a good 5 minutes, shampoo twice and rinse with hot water each time. You then take 10vol and applky it on the hair to see if it reverts back, if so do the process again.
Then you should have a level 6.5 at the top near the scalp and you'll see lighter hair at the bottom where the highlight were. You'll need to put the desired level on and probably a Ash or Ash + Neutral combo to get what you want, as the underlying pigment at that level will be very orange looking.
- Mags Kavanaugh International Education Director
for color extractor i use pravana
if you want a line that is specifically made for lifting color try wella magma
or like a stated before try a test strand (it works!)
I'm hoping someone in this thread can help.
I had a client come in with leve Nat. Level 3 roots. She had a partial weave that looked like yellow and orange alternating. It was not flattering on her darker complexion and really looked like she needed to be toned but she really liked it. She chose to go red, or at least pointed to the swatch at the time, so I put Redken Shades EQ 5RV all over her hair and obviously it covered her highlights and now she has a nice shade of red, except for her still dark roots which she didn't want to color at the time. (I know, weird).
Anyway, now she wants to got BACK to the yellow and orange highlights that she had before (I did not do them before). Is it possible to do a color correction on this?? Here is what I was thinking:
Chelate hair, then do a Malibu color correction and hope the red comes out, then cover her base with Redken Fusion 5AG and 10vol. Foil weave using bleach and 10vol. at roots and bleach and 20vol. on midshaft and ends to try and pull up to an even orangey color. Then if necessary, tone with Shades 8CG to give the highlights the even orange that she wants. I don't think I'll be able to give her the blonde alternating highlights because I don't think I can lift her high enough without risking damage.
Suggestions? Does this sound disasterous!!?? I'm nervous. Help and advice welcome. THanks. :)
I'm not sure about the formulas. Since I don't use redken and I'm not sure what the tones of those colors are, and I'm not familiar with any of the products you mentioned.
The one bit of advice I can give you is not to promise anything specific to this client and not to show her swatches anymore. She sounds like trouble, to be honest.
The technical advice I can offer you is that whenever you are doing a correction that involves removal of color you should resist the temptation to start formulating before you see how much color comes out.
The formula will depend completely on the color of the hair after the removal, and from the sound of it there is potential with this client that you may get in there and find out she has other color in her hair you don't know know about. Plus, removing an RV tone can be tricky in its self.
If you have someone in your salon who is really good at corrective color than maybe you can team up with them on this project. Two heads are always better than one!
Thanks, I will definitly try the Goldwell color remover. Prior to coloring my clients hair darker, she actually was a solid highlift blonde (not just highlighted). So after we remove the color, you think we should see outgrowth and then lighter hair down the shaft? Another question I had was about the 10vol application to find out if the color will revert back? Is it very possible that the process may need to be repeated? Im wondering how likely it is that the color reverts back. I want to find out from my client what her goals for color are over the next few months. She may want to get back to her blonde by summer time. So we may want to take advantage of the lightness we get back to from the color remover. After we remove the color this time, is it better to color with permanent color or a semi/demi to even out her base color?
I just wanted to add a couple things to this discussion if you all don't mind. As far as color lifting color, you can lift oxidative tint out of the hair with color, you just can't lift direct dyes out of the hair. Direct dyes are a preoxidized stain (very much like koolaid). Direct dyes can never be completely removed from the hair, they can only be lightened a little. Very much the same way if you spilled koolaid on one side of your white shirt and chocolate milk on the other side. When you bleach, the chocolate milk comes out, the koolaid only lightens a little. The only color line in the world with 100% oxidative tints is Primary SYN haircolor. You will find direct dyes in a lot of the shampoos from the grocery store now making our job much more difficult as colorists. As far as color found in salons, if the color comes out of the tube, bottle or can and it is already the color you want, it is a direct dye.
As far as sulpher based removers, you have to be very careful that you really clarify these out of the hair and formulate 2 levels lighter otherwise the color can revert back to the darker shade. I'm not saying not to use these removers, but be very careful. We don't use them at all in our salon anymore because of the smell, the unpredictability and we don't care for the way the hair feels afterwards. Primary SYN has a very gentle color remover that you can lift to the desired level and tone out unwanted tones. Though when working with a build up of direct dyes, it usually only to a level 6 red/orange.
Hope this helps.
I agree that the sulfur color removers are unpredictable. It takes a lot of experience to be able to tell if when they will work and when they won't . There is nothing worse than watching you level 3 client lighten up to an 8 like magic and then watching the color sink as your new formula oxidizes!
It seems to be that the trick is to figure out how much color has been overlapped in the hair and if there are any direct dyes present. If a client comes in with a vibrant red or deep brown to black box color you can bet there are direct dyes.
Almost all Feria products use direct dyes AND 25-40 volume peroxide. Dry, stained and hot at the roots! This makes it the most evil box product nighmare for a profesional colorist to tackle as a corrective.
The only home product that has given me more headaches then Feria is Loreal Colour Expert. Not so much for the direct dyes, but for the patchy and pourous blobs of "highlights" on top of flat and murky base colors I have run in to.
If the client has been color treated in another salon its harder to tell, since it depends on the skill of the colorist and the color line being used.
My rule up untill now is that if the color has been the same for over a year, or if it's very dark brown or very bright red I won't even bother. However, it seems some people have had a lot of luck with these removers by first using a gentle color remover in a more traditional formula to remove surface staining and then following with a sulfated color remover.
I think this is very smart, and I will definitely try it with my next corrective in the salon. The color buildup seems to be the determining factor, so it makes a lot of sense to remove the buildup before you proceed with the sulfated remover.
The sulfated removers are wonderful when they work properly! They take a lot of work out of the tint back process by preserving the newgrowth and eliminating banding and porosity issues.
Another thing that makes a big difference is to rinse them forever with warm water (like you would rinse a perm) and then neutralize for 3 minutes with 10 volume cream peroxide. The 10 volume test will tell you immediately wether or not the remover has worked. If it is going to sink back at this point it will. If the color changes at all with the 10 volume you need to do another sulfated remover or change to a more traditional process like a bleach cap.
It sounds like the color remover will probably work for this situation. Just do your 10 volume test and you should know if it's going to work out immediately. If you are in a Goldwell salon you could probably consult your local educator for some insight on what to do if you are unsure.
If the remover won't apply, then how about using an extra gentle bleach formula and taking her back slowly with a few applications?
You could start with a gentle bleach cap to get the surface taken care of and start to lift the color. The old fashioned formula of 1 scoop of powder bleach with 2 oz of clarifying shampoo and 1 oz of 20 volume with a little warm water has never failed me. I can also honestly say that I have never caused damage to the hair with this formula, either.
You might end up right where you want to be just doing this.
If you aren't at your goal, you can use then bleach with 5 or 10 volume to lift it a little more. At this point you could deep condition it and decide what to do next.
Maybe you will bleach it more that day. It might be perfect and you can just use the desired demi shade, or you could give it a rest and stop off at a different blonde color for a month and repeat the process again.
It's up to you and your client what you will do. Her level of patience plays a factor, but most of the time the client will appreciate when you go the extra mile to keep their hair healthy.
A few applications that are slow and more gentle will be easier on the hair than one aggressive application. Colorists often forget that bleach can be mixed with peroxides below 20 volume!
Bleach in itself is not bad. If you use it carefully, with caution and patience the result is not going to be fried hair. The damage only happens when colorists use peroxides that are higher than needed and lose control of the process. Over lifting and lifting too fast are the problems.
Just the other day I did a virgin double process all the way to a platinum with 10 volume and cream bleach! One of my coworkers asked me if I had used 30 volume to get it so bright and at the same time asked how I kept the hair so shiney.
I was just like "duh!". :)
Her hair was an 8 to start, why on earth would I need 30 volume?
The fact is, if I had used the 30 volume I would have not only lost control of the lifting, but I would have fried the hair and it never would have looked good. He automatically uses 30 on anyone who describes platinum!
I frequentlly use bleach with 6 volume in highlights, too. It no fail gets the hair to a clear pale yellow if the hair is a level 7 or lighter. For highligths on a 5 or a 6 base I use 10 volume.
Knowing where your starting and knowing where your going is 95% of the battle when it comes to color. From there, picking the most efficent but gentle method to get what you want is the other 5% of it.
If you have multiple layers of colorance, you will want to be careful as much of the colorance line is full of direct dyes. I would probably do a strand test to see if you can get any lighter. The way to tell if there are direct dyes in the color is by getting some out of the can. If it is any color other than white when it comes out, it is a direct dye. If this is the case, a strand test with a bleach wash is your best bet. The wash popgyrl gave is pretty gentle and will work with whatever line you are using.
Unfortunately, we aren't fighting direct dyes only in the grocery store products, almost every professional line has direct dyes in them, some more than others. Again, there's only one line that I know of that doesn't use any direct dyes in the line and that's Primary SYN.
I had an amazing experience with a somewhat unconventional (but totaly sensible) pre-color treatment a few weeks ago. Ever since I have been really into this idea of pre-cleansing and balancing the hair before color. You can read about this experience and the process here:
This discussion about direct dyes got me thinking about a post from a while back about using Clairol Metalex in color correction.
I searched for the post, but I think it may have been deleted by its original author. I remember the post detailed a process of using Metalex under a hot dryer, rinsed with hot water and then repeated to take a client from dark to light in a color correction without bleach.
The idea was very interesting to me. I wish the post was still up!
I'm a big beleiver in using small and gentle steps in correction rather than heading in with bleach or remover right away, as I said in one of my previous posts. My goal is always to preserve the integrity of the hair.
Sometimes the old ways are the best ways. You can't get a product older than Metalex! In my experience, using the old ways in combination with the newer products and ideas can result in pure awesomeness. :)
The pre-treatment got me thinking about how nice it would be to know that the hair has been cleansed of any old direct dyes when a color change is desired.
Not all changes require bleaching, but I was thinking that this Metalex method might be nice to use as a pre-treatment safeguard direct dye remover for a first time client, or for a client who wishes to make a change in tone but not level.
It would also be awesome to have a clean slate before a lightening service on a demi-permanent color junkie. There are so many of them these days!
The detail that I can't remember from the Metalex post was wether or not the oil conditioner is mixed with peroxide. Clairol suggests not to use heat with Metalex and with 20 under the dryer, but many times off labeling can be very effective when done thoughtfully.
So these are my questions:
*Will it Metalex alone remove direct dyes when used with heat?
*Has anybody tried using this product with a lower volume for surface stain removal?
*Do you have to worry about creating major porosity or damage when using this product mixed with a developer?
I'm going to experiment on the junior stylist in my salon who has about ten million layers of Color Touch on her hair in the warm brown, copper red and violet categories. These colors are on top of many old highlights and other random bleached block color sections. She also has the remains of an ancient and very flat level 4 base color from the occipital down and on some of her ends.
Her hair is a mess in the way that can only happen to a color happy young hairdresser! I figure if it works on her, it will work on anybody. Plus, I work with her, so if we need to change plans or cut a bunch off in the end she won't care. She's just sick of her hair looking like mud!
When I do this corrective I will take pictures of each step and post them online for anybody who is interesed.
In the mean time, any body who has experience with corrective color or using this product feel free to pipe in.
Cindy, If youre out there tell me your thoughts. You are my new internet color guru!
Metalex will remove some direct dyes, but Clairol's UnColor Liquid will remove them better and when ever you do want to remove artificial dyes, you must remove them in a specific order, the direct dyes must come out first as they are the biggest, then the indirect oxidative dyes, so you'd use the UnColor Liquid first then the Sulpher based remover or if you need to still lift the natural level up then you can use bleach to lift up the underlying pigment more and dissolve the artificial dyes.
I clicked the link about vinegar and I want you to know that vinegar can burn the hair because it's too acidic, you can buy a pre-made Acidifier, one I like is by Roverhair it's in the Power Addict line and it's the #2 Acidifier. Haircared.com has it.After you remove both dyes ( direct & indirect) it's best to use a acidifier so when you do color again with a demi permanent, the color will stay in. Hair expands when damaged, so you need to contract the cuticle back in so when you do color again, they won't leak out of the hair. Pigment packing helps, but if you can contract the cuticle layers back in first, then more dyes will stay in the hair.
- Mags KavanaughInternational Education Director
Below is the definition of Direct Dyes taken from the Encyclopedia Brittanica:
also called Substantive Dye, any of a class of coloured, water-soluble compounds that have an affinity for fibre and are taken up directly, such as the benzidine derivatives. Direct dyes are usually cheap and easily applied, and they can yield bright colours. Washfastness is poor but may be improved by aftertreatment. Most packaged dyes sold for home use are direct dyes.
If they are cheap and don't hold their color well, but then we can't get them out of the hair, why are we still using them as professionals. I understand the ease of them, but what sets us apart from the grocery store products, or the untrained person going in to Sally's and putting this junk on their hair. This is what the large companies who are running our industry want for us to do so they can get our clients in the grocery stores.
I for one did not pay thousands of dollars for beauty school, even more money on further education, or buy my salon to support these conglomerates. The same companies that are filling the grocery stores and professional color are the same companies who are telling our clients that they can get salon quality results from a box. Supporting these companies makes about as much sense to me as a chicken supporting Colonel Sander's.
I'm not trying to put down any hairdresser's using these products, just firmly believe that it's time to have a manufacturer support us as colorists and salon owners, rather than supporting our local grocery and drug stores. Especially in this economy, when so many are struggling to keep their homes, keep or find a job, just pay their bills, they are looking for a deal. The way our salon more than doubled our business last year is through support of the manufacturer's of the products we carry, using the best products on the market (with no direct dyes), and providing great service that they can't get from a box.
Sorry to jump on my soap box, but I saw the same conglomerates we are dealing with take the knees right out from under my Aunt's Salon as well as many of my good friends. I won't let them do that to me, or this great industry that I'm so passionate about.
Thanks for listening.
So Florida, I totally agree, diversion is killing our industry and it's the big wigs that are causing it. I used to work for Matrix for 20+ years and when I found out they were causing their own diversion I left.
I'm now working for a great non-diverted line called Compagnia Del Colore, that you only can order over the website called Haircare.com, no middle man, and it's the only place you can get it in the USA. My website has only non-diverted companies on it too, and I won't let other diverted companies on my site.
Even if I'm the only one in the world fighting diversion, I feel I need to as they are stealing money from me.
Glad to see there are others out there with the same feelings on diversion. In our salon, we won't even look at anything diverted or that looks like it is heading that way. We also make our distributors sign a contract that if they ever divert, they have to pay the salon back for everything ordered.
As far as color, we use Primary SYN. They are diversion proof since they went through the FDA (the only company to do that). They also require education prior to anyone using one tube of color. This ensures that they have a professional license on file.
Glad to see there are others who agree.
I use pravana color extractor im a huge fan of it. I also believe in lifting color (not direct dyes) out of hair...
Here is an example of my client..
New Client decides she wants to be brunette (for obvious reasons i agree by looking at the job her previous stylist did) I take her to desired shade...3 weeks later she calls says she had more fun as a blonde wants me to take her back... i schedule appt for 2 weeks later.. color was in hair total of 5 weeks took her back to a more complimentary blonde shade, with NO damage and only a trim of the ends... This was done by using color extractor brought to a level 7 shade of orange from there i act as if it is a new color (obviously going 2shades lighter then desired level) client arrived @ 4pm left at 7:30pm
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